CHAPTER 6: A CANDLE OF HOPE
4.2 Rohr’s followers
Rev Dalene Jordaan 27 September 2011 Ruimsig Rev Brenda Timmer 27 September 2011 Soweto
Ds George* 06 October 2011 Bapsfontein
Marina Fick 06 October 2011 Benoni
Rev Terry Howell 22 November 2011 Ermelo
Rev John van de Laar 22 November 2011 Cape Town (via Skype)
Geoff* 25 November 2011 Benoni
Rev Trevor Hudson 20 December 2011 Benoni
Rev Kevin Sprong 21 December 2011 Durban (via Skype) Rev Jenny* 21 December 2011 Durban (via Skype) Rev Paul Oosthuizen 30 December 2011 Edenvale
Rev Steven Lottering 24 January 2012 Mossel Bay (via Skype) Rev Colin Andrews 30 January 2012 Pinetown
Sergio Milandri 02 February 2012 Cape Town (via Skype)
5 Informed Consent form
University of KwaZulu-Natal School of Religion and Theology
Things yet unseen: A critical analysis of how the teachings of Angus Buchan and Richard Rohr offer alternative messages of Christian hope.
Rev Neil Vels Supervisor: Prof Tony Balcomb 084 580 0664 033 260 5560 [email protected]
I am a student at the UKZN School of Religion and Theology, and I am conducting interviews for my Master of Theology thesis. I am studying the ministries of the popular Christian speakers and writers Angus Buchan and Richard Rohr in order to determine what it is that makes their different theologies of hope popular so that it may be applied in the local church.
Through preliminary research I have determined that you have a particular interest in Angus Buchan / Richard Rohr and therefore request your contribution to this project.
During this study, you will be asked to answer some questions as to why the work of a particular author is meaningful to you and how it has shaped your view of God. This interview was designed to be approximately a half hour to an hour in length. However, please feel free to expand on the topic or talk about related ideas. Also, if there are any questions you would rather not answer or that you do not feel comfortable answering, please say so and we will stop the interview or move on to the next question, whichever you prefer. There is no penalty for discontinuing participation. There may be follow up questions at a later stage conducted telephonically or by email.
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Interviewer and project details Full Names: Neil Michael Vels
Research Project title: Things yet unseen: A critical analysis of how the teachings of Angus Buchan and Richard Rohr offer alternative messages of Christian hope.
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7 Sample interview 1: Louis Marneweck
Things yet unseen: A critical analysis of how the teachings of Angus Buchan and Richard Rohr offer alternative messages of Christian hope.
Interview transcript
Interviewer: Neil Michael Vels Student No: 210506432 Interviewee: Louis Marneweck
Dates: 11 November 2011
Place: Methodist Manse
16 Joubert Str, Standerton 082 414 5424
University: University of kwaZulu-Natal Supervisor: Prof Tony Balcomb
Date completed: 29 February 2012
Louis Marneweck is an ex-politician and part time farmer in the Standerton area who has attended a number of the Mighty Men Conferences and watches Angus Buchan regularly on television. He discusses the need men have to be able to be emotional and for a support group as he shares some of his experiences with other men at the
Conferences.
11 November 2011
Persons present: Neil Vels (bold) Louis Marneweck
Louis, thank you for agreeing to meet with me and to participate in this interview, you have signed the disclosure saying that you’re happy
Ja, no, it’s pleasure for me, Neil.
We’re just going to chat very informally about Angus Buchan and maybe we can begin if you can give me some of your own background, Christian background also.
Well, Neil, I grew up in an Afrikaans family, so we’ve always been part of the NG church and then I moved to the Baptist church. We experienced a lot of resistance because the whole family was Baptist, and some of our relatives said, you know, your children are too small, our youngest was ten and I said, you know what, we did the whole, can’t say, ja, it’s like a course, so we knew exactly what it’s about, but what we did in our quiet times, as a family, we dealt with the whole story of baptism with our children, and they decided themselves that they are ready to be baptised. And so that was… I got involved in politics, first with a party like the Freedom Front, based on their religious views, but then after a while I realised, that… so I formed a political party called the Christian Party. After prayers, and many other people praying, and we said, well, our only duty is to proclaim the name of Christ. And our slogan was, some people were upset with that, we said you know everybody’s got an idea of the solution, there’s only one solution of Africa and that is if South Africa can commit themselves 100% to Christ, so that’s roughly the background. I started off as a teacher, and…
What do you do now?
Neil, I’m a part time farmer. In 2009 I didn’t return to the legislature. I was a member there for two terms and representing the Christian Party so that was also something which is, was very helpful in the sense that it opened the conversation. People would say - I was the chairperson of Scopa - so there was a SADC grouping and there people, like in Malawi, they would say, “Christian Party?” You know they would want to know
more and that. So it always said, in my speeches, I always said, “What does the Bible say?” about this topic. Be it social welfare, economics, and that was what my speech was about. And I said, well, I used politics in that sense to tell people about Jesus Christ and what the Bible says. So that was my background in a nutshell.
And as a child growing up, as an Afrikaner you obviously went to church fairly regularly.
Ja, we went regularly Neil and you know my parents have always been religious, and my mother especially, you know she was always praying and reading Bible. My father as well, so it’s, you know I didn’t have that Damascus experience of being totally…
possibly the big danger is that you can be luke-warm, so as life went on I experienced the, I would say, a deeper progression in my religious life and as a family when we were baptised that was also…
And something happened to move you from the NG kerk to the Baptist?
I think, you know what happened, Neil? I always said you mustn’t use politics, religion, to boost your political ambitions, and at some stage the congregation that was in tend to be very political. There would get political messages on Sundays, instead of the gospel.
And then I said, well it’s not, you know, this cannot be, that’s not right to me. If I go to church I want to be enriched and… I must realise where I’m wrong and what can I do for my salvation. But to me that is the message that the church should… Of course the church must speak about social ills and all of that, using the Bible as your point of departure, but you cannot use the policy of a political party as your point of departure, and to gather votes for… I don’t believe that the dominee or whoever was… So we had that exp… and I just said, well, it’s not… but our whole family felt like that. You would walk out of church and say, “you know, I don’t know what the message was today.”
And I think it’s, that’s something that’s happening, especially in the Afrikaans community. I’ve experienced that, is that people tend to want to move on where they find food for their soul, just that, just going through the motions is not sufficient for people anymore. And I think it’s also… I discussed that with the dominee and all that, he just felt, well, he was on the right side. I served on the church council and all that…
and you know, for instance, you’ve got that report where you must report to the Synod
about sins in your congregation. And one of the schools, you know, like George
Hofmeyr we had the Vlakteskool and there was a spate of bad newspaper reports about some of the children that was being used for prostitution and… also they were pregnant and all that. But they were in the congregation, so here we are with visitation from the Synod and everything is hunky-dory. No mention of that. And then I said, well, I’ve got a problem that we’ve omitted some of the problems that we experience, and I raised it and the dominee said, “no, you know you’ve got it wrong, it’s those children…” I said,
“Those children are part of this congregation.” We can paint a rosy picture to the Synod, but what do we say to God about that children? We mustn’t condemn them, but we must help them. And if we say they don’t exist, then we will never help them. So it was just that sort of things and then I said, no let me… we must go where there’s a message for your children, for ourselves, so that we can realise the grace of God and it must, you know, you’re longing for more. So that’s why I’ve left the church and I said, there’s only one reason when, why you can leave your church and that’s is if there’s no
message for you anymore, and you stop growing and then I believe you must go where you can grow.
And if Louis you can maybe expand on it a bit, you’re now going to Replika, hey?
Ja How would you describe the Christian message? Not necessarily the… but the Christian message that you communicate, the gospel?
Ja, I believe, Neil, that the gospel we must, must be plain and simple in the sense that a child of eight years old must be able to understand the fact that Jesus have died for our sins, that he’s the only way, and that if we don’t, you know if we look at this new sort of movement that… everybody’s god is also the same God that we get away from that to say that there is only one way. We don’t hate other people that believe differently from us like Muslims, but we pray for them and that whenever we’ve got the
opportunity that we can also speak to them. You know, I think away from, sometimes you get confronted with people saying that “draai or braai” situation, but I believe that first of all you - I think Angus puts it very well, he always says he’s not interested in your story, only what is God’s story. But I think people want to know the truth, plain and simple, and they must be able to understand the message. Or sometimes it’s, there’s difficult things in the Bible for some people to understand, but if you, if a preacher’s got
the gift to be able to simplify all of that. But I believe Jesus have used stories to simplify the gospel for us, but to me that’s important, that what our, why you, how it should be. But it’s only when you ask God to help you with the message that you can simplify it .
Let’s talk a little bit about hope, the focus of my thesis is looking at Christian hope.
What is hope for you? What is Christian hope for you?
Well, Neil, for me it’s the fact that I know that Jesus have died for my sins. And because of that I’ve received grace, but grace is a continuous, thing that’s happening.
And it’s not a once off. And we are sinners, and some sins, there’s nobody that’s perfect and if I realise that God have granted me the grace and that my sins are forgiven and that Jesus is the mediator and the way that I can come to God at any time, day or night, and that gives me hope that whatever the circumstances is. You know when I was involved in politics… like Julius Malema for instance, people have asked me what should they do. Should they emigrate or leave? I say you know what? If you read the Bible you will see that God appoints people and he takes than away as well. And the same will happen to Julius Malema, that we must pray for him that he, he can be saved because he’s got lots of talents, but God is protecting us, our lives is in his hands and that he will, he will keep us there. And if he wants us to do something differently like emigrating or whatever then you must go, but make sure that that is the message from God, not only your own, but don’t get despondent about it because, you know, I don’t know if you remember Peter Mokaba? And I said to this one guy, he’s a farmer, I said
“Do you what, do you remember Peter Mokaba?” and he had to think for quite a while.
I said that was the guy who said, the settlers and one bullet, you know one farmer and all of that. I said, a long time ago he passed away. The stadium in Polokwane is named after him and there’s a street in Potchefstroom. At that point he was one of the biggest threats and people have said, well we must leave South Africa because of this man, and I said and he’s been taken away. So don’t despair, you know, put your trust in God.
That’s my view
If we talk about Angus Buchan. I think Angus’s message is one of hope.
Ja, definitely.
Maybe just to give a bit of background. How did you become aware of Angus?
Neil, he visited Standerton, but then I couldn’t attend. There was, I wasn’t in the Baptist church at that point but that wasn’t the issue. I think 72 people attended.
This must have been a few years ago?
Ja. He just started off. And then he came to Standerton, you know and… but my brother-in-law, they are staying in, they stayed in Escourt, but they staying in
Ladysmith now. He went there first, you know when they were still very, just a couple of hundred, and he told me about that and I also went down there and it’s, to me it was just an amazing experience with all the men there because I believe that the men are under pressure. You’re the leader in your house, but economic circumstances and all of that puts men under pressure and especially, I would say, my generation who still did national service and you were involved in the border and all that, and some guys that was in the permanent force, you know felt that, look, all of a sudden they are all the bad guys and you went after…
Sorry, Louis, how old are you?
I’m 57. So it was just that era of, you had no choice. I know I met some guys from New Zealand when they were here on a rugby tour and we were on a tour and I was invited by one of the directors of teaching to come to New Zealand, stay there for four years, play rugby, and be a teacher there and come back, but you first had to do national service, so that… and then that window of opportunity then passed, you know closed, and it wasn’t there any more. But all of that and people then felt, well, they felt they were betrayed, they received medals and all of that sort of issues if you look at all of that, and then the message that Angus gave them, Here’s men, they are open out in the veld with other men and they can feel free to cry if they want to, nobody will feel that they are embarrassing them or that sort of thing. They could just deal with their
problems and the message of course, first of all the message that Angus brought to them that there is hope and there’s salvation and he also, the encouragement that, where you give your life to Christ, go out and join a Bible-based church, become part of the church family. To me that was, that’s what men needs today. You know and I was there when